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	<title>Comments on: Designing the Home Fire Sprinkler System to Survive</title>
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	<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/</link>
	<description>Protecting Your Home &#38; Family</description>
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		<title>By: Simon Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-40611</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 May 2011 18:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-40611</guid>
		<description>John Young. Temperatures that fall significantly below the design temperature range as required by a juristiction at some point are surely considered an Act of God, and therefore beyond the scope of any warranty of liability. How is that different to a roof correctly designed for 1&#039; snow load collapsing under 5&#039; of snow, or a roof designed for 90 mph winds blowing off because of a recorded freak wind.

Surely if the homeowner is informed in the small print, or large print for that matter, the limitations of a sprinkler system that is fully compliant with all required codes...then how can that fall back on you. Its not as if the homeowner will be given a false sense of security that they have a 100% safe system, when its actually only 99% effective...whose famous last words were &#039;Go back to bed honey, the sprinklers will take care of that fire in the living room.&#039; The bottom line is a system that is fully funcional for 360 days a year is better than no system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Young. Temperatures that fall significantly below the design temperature range as required by a juristiction at some point are surely considered an Act of God, and therefore beyond the scope of any warranty of liability. How is that different to a roof correctly designed for 1&#8242; snow load collapsing under 5&#8242; of snow, or a roof designed for 90 mph winds blowing off because of a recorded freak wind.</p>
<p>Surely if the homeowner is informed in the small print, or large print for that matter, the limitations of a sprinkler system that is fully compliant with all required codes&#8230;then how can that fall back on you. Its not as if the homeowner will be given a false sense of security that they have a 100% safe system, when its actually only 99% effective&#8230;whose famous last words were &#8216;Go back to bed honey, the sprinklers will take care of that fire in the living room.&#8217; The bottom line is a system that is fully funcional for 360 days a year is better than no system.</p>
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		<title>By: john young</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-29117</link>
		<dc:creator>john young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-29117</guid>
		<description>there are  several problems related  to the use of pex pipe for sprinkler system...

1 . pex will freeze but not break
   this  is  good  for  the  homeowner only
   
if you are a contractor and the pex pipe residential fire sprinkler system freezes then that home has a fire which does extensive damage  ( please pray that no one dies in this fire ) owners insurance company sues the sprinkler contractor and his insurance company
who is at fault... how does the contractor prove the system was  inoperable because of event beyond his control
i speak from personal experience about this
in 1987 88 i installed approved polybutylene
( not the same material but it will not break if frozen)fire sprinkler systems at a company that
did @ 5 million worth of this business alone
 the problem is as stated earlier ...
contracting and installing  a residential fire sprinkler system is solely for saving lives
how is FROZEN PEX going do accomplish that 
in a court of law your judgement  will be called  into question ( as it may be very hard for your lawyers to prove the pipe was frozen at the time of the fire ) also the issue of your business ethics..are you minimising the singular goal of saving lives to make money..
this may not sound like much of a problem but
the homeowner  who lost his house or pets or loved ones is going to generate a lot of sympathy 

the assumption that any frozen pipe fire sprinkler system is good for home owners or contractors or the residential fire sprinkler industry is ridiculous.. what  would  be good  for everyone involved would be a residential dry piped system.. this  would  require a considerable effort by nfpa to save EVERYONE 
the considerable problem of frozen / breaking pipe in there homes ... the other major hurdle
is to get all home builders to care enough to 
make accommodations for the safe installation of residential fire sprinkler system ..
and lastly the education of all home owners
about the need to keep the heat on or turn off and drain your system  
the residential fire sprinkler industry has a daunting task ahead</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there are  several problems related  to the use of pex pipe for sprinkler system&#8230;</p>
<p>1 . pex will freeze but not break<br />
   this  is  good  for  the  homeowner only</p>
<p>if you are a contractor and the pex pipe residential fire sprinkler system freezes then that home has a fire which does extensive damage  ( please pray that no one dies in this fire ) owners insurance company sues the sprinkler contractor and his insurance company<br />
who is at fault&#8230; how does the contractor prove the system was  inoperable because of event beyond his control<br />
i speak from personal experience about this<br />
in 1987 88 i installed approved polybutylene<br />
( not the same material but it will not break if frozen)fire sprinkler systems at a company that<br />
did @ 5 million worth of this business alone<br />
 the problem is as stated earlier &#8230;<br />
contracting and installing  a residential fire sprinkler system is solely for saving lives<br />
how is FROZEN PEX going do accomplish that<br />
in a court of law your judgement  will be called  into question ( as it may be very hard for your lawyers to prove the pipe was frozen at the time of the fire ) also the issue of your business ethics..are you minimising the singular goal of saving lives to make money..<br />
this may not sound like much of a problem but<br />
the homeowner  who lost his house or pets or loved ones is going to generate a lot of sympathy </p>
<p>the assumption that any frozen pipe fire sprinkler system is good for home owners or contractors or the residential fire sprinkler industry is ridiculous.. what  would  be good  for everyone involved would be a residential dry piped system.. this  would  require a considerable effort by nfpa to save EVERYONE<br />
the considerable problem of frozen / breaking pipe in there homes &#8230; the other major hurdle<br />
is to get all home builders to care enough to<br />
make accommodations for the safe installation of residential fire sprinkler system ..<br />
and lastly the education of all home owners<br />
about the need to keep the heat on or turn off and drain your system<br />
the residential fire sprinkler industry has a daunting task ahead</p>
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		<title>By: marc</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-22775</link>
		<dc:creator>marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 01:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-22775</guid>
		<description>why does everyone want wet lines? why not have a dry system with a solenoid and actuator? if you did it this way, pipes would never freeze. you would also be able to tie-in to your home sercurity alarm for battery back up and activation. better yet why not tie it into smoke detectors and air pressure sensor with two solenoids, this would give you dual saftey. you would need both a smoke and a broken head before water filled pipes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>why does everyone want wet lines? why not have a dry system with a solenoid and actuator? if you did it this way, pipes would never freeze. you would also be able to tie-in to your home sercurity alarm for battery back up and activation. better yet why not tie it into smoke detectors and air pressure sensor with two solenoids, this would give you dual saftey. you would need both a smoke and a broken head before water filled pipes?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-21486</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-21486</guid>
		<description>will PEX melt/w water in the piping under fire conditions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>will PEX melt/w water in the piping under fire conditions?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Emmonds</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-21205</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Emmonds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:38:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-21205</guid>
		<description>I am a fire sprinkler contractor...NICET certified, with 22 years of experience in every facet of the industry.  I reside &amp; conduct business in PA. The 2009 edition of the Uniform Const. Code is the primary law of the land (so to speak).  The state legislature has passed a statewide requirement (beginning 1-1-11) that will mandate all new homes built in the commonwealth will be required to have 13D systems installed... The law does face opposition from realtors, and general contractors, claiming that a poll taken reflected potential home buyers absolute opposition somewhere around 85%... Supporters of the bill, must find a way to educate these buyers of the benefits of having these systems installed.  Homeowners Insurance provides substantive reductions in premium costs.  I offer all my clients free maintenance &amp; inspections for 2 years. I believe that education is vital for detractors of this legislation.  Any assistance this forum could share with me to provide educational tools, studies of data, anything that can assist me in easing the concerns of my clients would be greatly appreciated... I am very glad this forum exists, and hope that it will provide these tools to educate the consumer.
Thank You All-
Scott Emmonds</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a fire sprinkler contractor&#8230;NICET certified, with 22 years of experience in every facet of the industry.  I reside &amp; conduct business in PA. The 2009 edition of the Uniform Const. Code is the primary law of the land (so to speak).  The state legislature has passed a statewide requirement (beginning 1-1-11) that will mandate all new homes built in the commonwealth will be required to have 13D systems installed&#8230; The law does face opposition from realtors, and general contractors, claiming that a poll taken reflected potential home buyers absolute opposition somewhere around 85%&#8230; Supporters of the bill, must find a way to educate these buyers of the benefits of having these systems installed.  Homeowners Insurance provides substantive reductions in premium costs.  I offer all my clients free maintenance &amp; inspections for 2 years. I believe that education is vital for detractors of this legislation.  Any assistance this forum could share with me to provide educational tools, studies of data, anything that can assist me in easing the concerns of my clients would be greatly appreciated&#8230; I am very glad this forum exists, and hope that it will provide these tools to educate the consumer.<br />
Thank You All-<br />
Scott Emmonds</p>
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		<title>By: bill</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-20831</link>
		<dc:creator>bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-20831</guid>
		<description>Differences between glycol and glycerine-based antifreeze?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Differences between glycol and glycerine-based antifreeze?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-20571</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 00:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-20571</guid>
		<description>I like the article, it gave me some good idea&#039;s of how to design my own fire sprinkler system.
I was going to just run a water line with a cap at the end and add fire sprinkler heads in the line though out the house, but I was worried about air pockets and stagnet water. but know I see run it as a loop to a toilet or faucet. so the water can drip when it&#039;s cold out or when we flush the toilet the water will be refreshed. A+++ good article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the article, it gave me some good idea&#8217;s of how to design my own fire sprinkler system.<br />
I was going to just run a water line with a cap at the end and add fire sprinkler heads in the line though out the house, but I was worried about air pockets and stagnet water. but know I see run it as a loop to a toilet or faucet. so the water can drip when it&#8217;s cold out or when we flush the toilet the water will be refreshed. A+++ good article.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Foy</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-19597</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Foy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:11:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-19597</guid>
		<description>What temperature sprinkler heads do I need? I want to install sprinklers at my furnace. Do I need to braze or silver solder the copper fittings.
 Brian A foy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What temperature sprinkler heads do I need? I want to install sprinklers at my furnace. Do I need to braze or silver solder the copper fittings.<br />
 Brian A foy.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-18608</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 17:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-18608</guid>
		<description>Suspect one of two possible conditions existed:
1.  improper concentration of glycol relative to the total system capacity
2. The system was not properly drained of ALL water. Glycol added to a system should be pre-mixed and then added. It will not make its way to each head. Thus, you could have had water in a drop with no glycol protection.

In a 50% mixture, glycol will give you -60 burst point.  Ice crystals will form at higher temps (around 0 degrees F) but will continue to flow.  Something is amiss here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suspect one of two possible conditions existed:<br />
1.  improper concentration of glycol relative to the total system capacity<br />
2. The system was not properly drained of ALL water. Glycol added to a system should be pre-mixed and then added. It will not make its way to each head. Thus, you could have had water in a drop with no glycol protection.</p>
<p>In a 50% mixture, glycol will give you -60 burst point.  Ice crystals will form at higher temps (around 0 degrees F) but will continue to flow.  Something is amiss here.</p>
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		<title>By: V. Merit</title>
		<link>http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/designing-the-home-fire-sprinkler-system-to-survive/comment-page-1/#comment-18317</link>
		<dc:creator>V. Merit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 00:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.residentialfiresprinklers.com/blog/?p=1135#comment-18317</guid>
		<description>I’m wondering about sprinkler system maintenance. I have a multi-million dollar home and a PVC sprinkler system that burst from freezing not more than 6 weeks after having the system recharged with antifreeze. To me this is unacceptable. The purported fire sprinkler system “expert” that did the maintenance turned out to be a subcontractor of somebody who is a fire marshal and runs a fire protection company as well. Now that person is blaming their sub and running from the problem. Isn’t it pretty clear that if a sprinkler pipe bursts shortly after allegedly being recharged with glycol that somebody didn’t do the job correctly?

Ancillary questions: 1. Seems to me that a fire marshal masquerading as a fire protection company on the side is a conflict of interest. At the very least, it’s unseemly. 2. Since residential sprinkler systems are actually more like a giant IED waiting to go off and cause massive property destruction, rather than actually protecting the house from fire, why are they required in so many rural communities today? 3. Corollary to Q#2., why if sprinklers are so amazingly valuable don’t they all get installed with PEX???? This would seem a no-brainer.

Thanks for any salient replies.

---------

How can it be that a system freshly recharged with anti freeze could then freeze and burst… this in a heated house albeit the system was PVC, not PEX.

This puts the whole notion of the desirability of sprinklers in residential structures in question, IMHO. In colder climes, there would seem to be such a “ticking time bomb” liability that the sprinkler system will freeze and burst and cause stunning amounts of property damage, vs. the alternate risk of perhaps saving some of the house from a fire. Water damage can be every bit as devastating as fire and/or smoke damage.

Just saying….</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m wondering about sprinkler system maintenance. I have a multi-million dollar home and a PVC sprinkler system that burst from freezing not more than 6 weeks after having the system recharged with antifreeze. To me this is unacceptable. The purported fire sprinkler system “expert” that did the maintenance turned out to be a subcontractor of somebody who is a fire marshal and runs a fire protection company as well. Now that person is blaming their sub and running from the problem. Isn’t it pretty clear that if a sprinkler pipe bursts shortly after allegedly being recharged with glycol that somebody didn’t do the job correctly?</p>
<p>Ancillary questions: 1. Seems to me that a fire marshal masquerading as a fire protection company on the side is a conflict of interest. At the very least, it’s unseemly. 2. Since residential sprinkler systems are actually more like a giant IED waiting to go off and cause massive property destruction, rather than actually protecting the house from fire, why are they required in so many rural communities today? 3. Corollary to Q#2., why if sprinklers are so amazingly valuable don’t they all get installed with PEX???? This would seem a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Thanks for any salient replies.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>How can it be that a system freshly recharged with anti freeze could then freeze and burst… this in a heated house albeit the system was PVC, not PEX.</p>
<p>This puts the whole notion of the desirability of sprinklers in residential structures in question, IMHO. In colder climes, there would seem to be such a “ticking time bomb” liability that the sprinkler system will freeze and burst and cause stunning amounts of property damage, vs. the alternate risk of perhaps saving some of the house from a fire. Water damage can be every bit as devastating as fire and/or smoke damage.</p>
<p>Just saying….</p>
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